Alex, I went in 2009 when I was working on my own and plan to be there this year as I am working on my own. But in 2010 (last year) I was the eCommerce Director of a dealership. My owners went and did not bring me. They would not even listen to my reasoning. They had a problem with my attending Digital Dealer. The common remark was, "you learned so much over the years why don't you start to implement it?" and my response was "I have implemented Mr. Dealer, how else did my department become successful so fast?"

It is amazing how many people just don't get it. Why? They think they know everything and they do not want to change. They say they want to sell more cars using the internet. They say they want to get involved in Social Media. But as soon as you give them just that they are never satisfied. The other problem with these dealers sending "future managers" to these events is the thought that they will lose them to a vendor given the right opportunity. We all know how many of us that has happened to.

First off, good job on establishing the importance of a well run PPC campaign. Being Google Adwords Certified Partners ourselves, I can appreciate a good PPC campaign any day of the week. That said, I'm all for sensationalism, but it's a little irresponsible to say 'forget about SEO unless your website is in transition, or to call it wiz-bang nonsense'. 

This especially when SEO drives 8.5X as many clicks as a PPC ad does (source Via Enquisite: PPC Agencies Make 45X What SEOs Do for the Same Value) 

Furthermore, with Landing Page Quality Score being the second most important factor (after CTR) http://bit.ly/j0JJHt it's important to make sure your LP has basic on-page SEO implemented. Let me play devil's advocate to some of the PPC-isms you talk about:Control - No one can guarantee placement. While that is true, you can control a number of other very important things.

- Meta Descriptions 
- Integrated Listing Rich Name, Address, Phone #, Ratings Data. 

Timing - It's important to tie non-branded organic search traffic to conversion data the same way you'd tie PPC traffic to conversion data. An analysis should be done around the 3 month mark to see how cost per lead via SEO is far lower than the cost per lead via PPC.

Traffic - We've got clients in every major vertical (think Yellow Pages verticals) and the theme I see repeated on every analytics account is that about 50%+ of their traffic is mid-tail or long tail organic traffic. This is 'non-branded' traffic as well by the way. Focusing on your top 3-5 money keywords is a good start, but it's also what the competition is gunning for. Play it smart by uncovering keywords that have low traffic and low competition, then generate content that hits different keyword variations for easy ranking wins.

ROI - You're on the money about how the ROI between SEO and PPC pans out. As more dealers get into online marketing, average bid prices will go up at a more liquid/elastic rate than the average price for SEO services (which everyone charges a different rate for). 

Terence, all in all a great post on the merits of PPC. Just had to make sure the sensationalism of the "SEO is Dead" type commentary was presented with a grain of salt.

First off, good job on establishing the importance of a well run PPC campaign. Being Google Adwords Certified Partners ourselves, I can appreciate a good PPC campaign any day of the week. That said, I'm all for sensationalism, but it's a little irresponsible to say 'forget about SEO unless your website is in transition, or to call it wiz-bang nonsense'. 

This especially when SEO drives 8.5X as many clicks as a PPC ad does (source Via Enquisite: PPC Agencies Make 45X What SEOs Do for the Same Value) 

Furthermore, with Landing Page Quality Score being the second most important factor (after CTR) http://bit.ly/j0JJHt it's important to make sure your LP has basic on-page SEO implemented. Let me play devil's advocate to some of the PPC-isms you talk about:Control - No one can guarantee placement. While that is true, you can control a number of other very important things.

- Meta Descriptions 
- Integrated Listing Rich Name, Address, Phone #, Ratings Data. 

Timing - It's important to tie non-branded organic search traffic to conversion data the same way you'd tie PPC traffic to conversion data. An analysis should be done around the 3 month mark to see how cost per lead via SEO is far lower than the cost per lead via PPC.

Traffic - We've got clients in every major vertical (think Yellow Pages verticals) and the theme I see repeated on every analytics account is that about 50%+ of their traffic is mid-tail or long tail organic traffic. This is 'non-branded' traffic as well by the way. Focusing on your top 3-5 money keywords is a good start, but it's also what the competition is gunning for. Play it smart by uncovering keywords that have low traffic and low competition, then generate content that hits different keyword variations for easy ranking wins.

ROI - You're on the money about how the ROI between SEO and PPC pans out. As more dealers get into online marketing, average bid prices will go up at a more liquid/elastic rate than the average price for SEO services (which everyone charges a different rate for). 

Terence, all in all a great post on the merits of PPC. Just had to make sure the sensationalism of the "SEO is Dead" type commentary was presented with a grain of salt.

The comments above are critical read read as you build your Internet Marketing strategy for your site.

If a dealer just jumps into PPC without any idea on how they are going to convert their traffic, PPC will just result in a lot of money spent with limited success.

The first thing a dealer must do is develop their overall marketing strategy including how to market to their prospects and customers online. This strategy should include their site, social (facebook and twitter) and search. After that, a dealer can decide what Internet Marketing strategies to leverage to drive the BEST search traffic not the most traffic to their site. A dealer should think about traffic that converts not just how many visitors they get.

How many dealers are still just creating AdWords campaigns that are not tied to goals in analytics? Can a dealer say if a term is profitable? If a dealer does not know if PPC is working, they need to either pause their campaign(s) and figure out what is happening or at least quickly analyze their results and start investing their money in the right places. AND that might be PPC and SEO! SEO is still important as a way to drive good traffic if its done the right way!

T. Gordon;

A line waiting to issue commendation that the intellect of this industry follows your lead on this subject matter.

As it relates to Google Adwords, there was a Byron White who was at NADA that is Google's Automotive Marketing Strategist. I would like to humbly suggest that you reach out to Byron and make your introduction.

One thing you accurately relay at the end of your article is the FACT that dealers and dealership personnel should excel at SELLING THE CARS! Marketing, whether online or traditionally is best left to the pros who are able to remain on the front of the blade, the cutting edge of these approaches and technologies.

To that point, if and when you determine to host a web conference on "PPC vs. SEO and How to Profit from Each", I will be first to sign up! And, do remember to contact Google. They, too, can benefit from your apparent expertise on these tools and their application in auto retail sectors.

Your able professional,

D. Rawls
Auto Buyer Consultants

Ouch. Google hammers another nail in the Organic SEO coffin. See the Brian Pasch post:

Google Changes Automotive Adwords Strategy http://www.internetsalesmanager.org/profiles/blog...

Jeffery T, I found another error for you to address. You wrote:

"...anything more then a dozen or two keywords in a group is a waste and is not structured right... "

Google doesn't follow your advice and I haven't found any reference to this, can you supply a link to back your findings?

Here's my findings. A Google real life example:

We're using Google's new ad service call "Google Boost". It's a Google Places service, but its keyword driven and it's 100% built and managed via adwords.

At the center of the new Google Boost is a system that automatically builds adwords for you based on your Google Places account.

It has the common adwords hierarchy we all know (Campaign >> Ad Group). Google automatically populates the adgroups and fill up the folders with LOTS OF KEYWORDS (aka Google doesn't follow your advice).

If you look below, I've listed the 77 KEYWORDS that Google has placed in the adgroup Google labeled: basic_cardealer.

Keyword:
used auto
usedcars
used cars for sale by owner
used car search
used car classifieds
sell used car
used car finder
used cars
used cars for sale
japanese used cars
japanese used car dealers
used sports cars
used car values
second hand cars
used cars dealerships
find used car dealer
used auto dealers
used cars dealers
used cars dealership
find a used car dealer
used car dealers
best used cars to buy
used car dealer
find used cars
affordable used cars
pre owned cars
used cars online
used trucks for sale
used cars and trucks
used car listings
buy used car online
used car dealerships
used car dealership
used car shopping
used car auctions
second hand cars for sale
certified used cars
used car trader
private used car sales
used car lots
cheapest used cars
used sports cars for sale
local used cars
used cars sale
used car deals
auto used cars
new and used cars for sale
used cars by owner
car lots
used car auto for sale
used car search engines
used car lot
pre owned used cars
discount used cars
used car websites
find used cars online
cheap used cars for sale
local used cars for sale
local used car dealers
local used car dealerships
buy cheap used cars
buying a used car from a dealer
online used car dealers
pre owned car dealers
used cars vans
new and used car dealers
car dealers used cars
find used cars in my area
used cars for sale by dealers
find a used car dealership
used cars by dealer
used car dearer

Jeffery, Right now, Google is telling me that your statement is wrong, but, Google has been known to make inter-department errors and this could easily be another example!! Please send along your research and references to support your claim.

It would be interesting to see click through data for a few result pages with the following variables:

1. Organic only
2. Organic and ppc placement
3. PPC placement only

I understand the importance of owning % of page using seo/ppc, however, I am not sold on having ppc only for terms you should organically rank for.

Have there been studies on user behavior regarding chances of grabbing the click with ppc and no organic?

I imagine a study on this would get dicey as the search engines would naturally want to boost ppc revenue as would SEM providers.

From a personal standpoint, I rarely click on ppc results. The only time I would is when there are organic results to re-enforce the ppc. I'm your "average" consumer.

Love the topic. If anyone would like to discuss offline I would love it. I'm always looking to learn more about this. Email me.

Technically a vendor to vendor spat followed by Joe's bully-like defense of Brian. It's all good and I'm sure they'll hug it out later.

Great article Terrence! Nice to see you posting in the community.

This post makes me think of a song called "Get Along" by a band called the Holy Cows from my home town in Chelsea Michigan. Gosh I miss the old days.

You know, there was a time, not long ago, that almost nobody in the auto industry knew what SEO or SEM or PPC was. Now it seems like everyone is an expert.

But think about something, if so many experts can rise up in just a few shorts years of practice, then how difficult is Search Engine Marketing really?

So, it's a time-issue really, not a matter of smarts or wits. Sure you can make it complicated but in the end, effective PPC and SEO comes down to understanding a few basic principles and taking the time to apply them.

The smart dealer will do two things…

1.) Have at least one person in-house who understands this stuff and can do it.
2.) Give that person a directive and a budget to work with trustworthy experts.

This way, the dealership can be part of the strategy and not consumed by it. In my experience, dealers with understanding and oversight get better results than those that hire people only to expect miracles after not being involved. Strange, I know.

great post! love the feedback! other than when it turns into catfights between vendors and/or dealers n vendors everyone play nice. everyones in the same sandbox - just trying to grow

Yes Jeffery, that's how community threads work. It's an open exchange. Its how we grow. Inside your napalm attack, you've left me (and the community) a challenge that I have no answer for. It's these discoveries that I treasure. You wrote:

"...anything more then a dozen or two keywords in a group is a waste and is not structured right... "

That's news to me! Back to the drawing board!

With ya Brian, we're on the same page. I am afraid of over simplifying optimization. Lots to consider.

Fair enough...However...Food for thought...my angst wasn't directed at you initially, you just decided to put yourself in the middle if it

Dear Jeffery T,

You started by replying to Brian Pasch, he said:

"...and they should test the broad high volume phrases like "used cars", "used ford", "used nissan", "cars for sale", "toyota dealers""

You replied:

"...those keywords are terrible... way to broad..often very expensive, and will drag down quality scores because they won't have a CTR above 1% (If you are lucky). Thus making a dealer pay even more per click for all other keywords in a campaign..."

I run my PPC totally in the dark, I have no one else to study with or to compare to and I was puzzled by your response, I took the bait from YOUR reply and posted my non-model specific generic keywords and their CTRs.

"used cars" = 7.9% CTR
"buy used cars" = 14.8% CTR
"used car for sale" = 19.05% CTR
buy used cars = 3.49% CTR
and on and on and on...

From that, you told me you needed to retire.

Listen Jeffery, you have to work on your intensity. Not sure if you know it, but its not coming across well, you're so intense I want to nick name you Jeffery T Napalm.

Look at the opportunity you missed. Same message, but with out the angst... You could have written:

"Joe, we are a service that helps people like you excel. I'd bet if we did a thorough review of your work to date, and compare it against our model, the gains we'd bring to your campaigns could be easily pay for our fees and leave you room to expand your reach! Then Joe, for the full picture, let's tally up all the time and research you make into PPC and re-apply that new found time into other areas that need your attention. Now, we're selling more cars and that s a productive partnership!"

Opportunity is everywhere Jeffery T. Even with the know-it-all independents like me.

Joe

When I talk about conversion for car dealer PPC, I am not just speaking about just traditional Google form submission conversion code. When a dealer sends a click to a landing page, I believe it should be more of a dashboard of choices. We should not assume that people are ready for any single task.

A consumer may click on a 2011 Toyota Camry PPC ad to get a phone number to service their vehicle. They may think they want a 2011 Camry but when they see the payment terms on the landing page, they may want to compare what used Camry's cost. They may want to download a PDF brochure. So, why assume what the consumer wants.

Thus, testing designs that engage any action that is brand enhancing and part of the ultimate conversion funnel.

If you listen to calls associated with PPC tracking numbers, many people call to see if the car is in stock and to check on price. Of course, service calls are part of the mix.

So landing pages should encourage calls, and some data published by Dealer.com would say that they prefer to call then submit a lead.

Landing pages should have easy navigation to service, used cars, new cars, etc. A consumer dashboard that is clean and not too narrowly focused. This will reward your investment in the click.

While you are bringing up the point that consumers from a PPC action may be likely to return to your website, would you consider adding a few customer testimonial video links on a landing page to allow them to see how their peers were treated?

One Boo Boo in my haste to answer..

"Really? You proved the point with a 1.47% quality score across the board. If I had that for any of my clients I would retire... "

Should have read 1.47% CTR not Quality score....

One last thing... I would be willing to bet allot of the people who read this blog know who I am..including the author, I'm just a quiet guy until I can't bear what I read anymore...

I have 6000 keywords in play, 600 of them are generic keywords.

Mistake 101.... 6000 Keywords in Play..Really?
Anyone who know PPC knows that anything more then a dozen or two keywords in a group is a waste and is not structured right...

The 600 entries are a mix of broad, phrase and exact match.

Broad, phrase and exact...Ok, Which do you bid more for? How about broad plus match, how about negative broad plus match... I can go all day...that statement is amateurish

They are broke out into 5 sub groups to improve Quality Score. The sub groups are Cars,Trucks,Vans, SUVs & Finance. They have an avg Click Thru rate of 1.47% and an avg quality score of 7/10.

Is 1.47% Good?
I can show you ad groups with 10 out of 10's across the board...

Of the 600 generics, less than 20 have a quality score < 6/10 and only 30 have a QS = 6/10

Generics....What does that mean? Do they tie out to a generic ad?

Ahhh... am I prefect? No. But your <1%? and it's relation to QS. You missed that so badly it makes me wonder why or how you missed it so bad. Not good.

Really? You proved the point with a 1.47% quality score across the board. If I had that for any of my clients I would retire...

So I'm confused...Not Good?...What's not good?

Should you think I am "Cherry picking" the list to bend the numbers, lets look at the high volume entries. The top 10 generic phrases create 90% of the traffic (from all 600 entries in this group). The Top ten have an avg CTR of > 7%.

A few Examples are:

"used cars" = 7.9% CTR - Send me a screenshot where you have a sustained CTR of 7.9% for more then 60 Days continually run with more then 100k in impressions....

"buy used cars" = 14.8% CTR "Same statement as above"
"used car for sale" = 19.05% CTR "Same statement as above"
buy used cars = 3.49% CTR
and on and on and on...

Let's make the banter have some worth.... I'll put my company's skills up against anyone and with odds, on my dime..Are you a taker?

Hmmm... I'm a big boy and will simply say this...
I have been in the business for 9 Years, have well over 200 Accounts, Manage High 6-Figures in PPC spend every month and do ok....
That said, I'll take my time and address each of your points over the next few days. And finally, every hates a know it all... I am surely not one, but I see a few of them here, are you one?

Jeffery T,

We havent met, but, welcome aboard. We all welcome passion... Even VENDOR passion ... But, IMO, you've made many errors.

Most importantly, You really need to FIX your numbers. You are presenting yourself as an authority. No.. your presenting yourself as the ONLY authority. Be careful, your numbers (AND your assumptions) from these numbers are wrong.

You wrote to Brian P:

"...those keywords are terrible... way to broad..often very expensive, and will drag down quality scores because they won't have a CTR above 1% (If you are lucky). Thus making a dealer pay even more per click for all other keywords in a campaign..."

Wow, are you off the mark.

I have 6000 keywords in play, 600 of them are generic keywords. The 600 entries are a mix of broad, phrase and exact match. They are broke out into 5 sub groups to improve Quality Score. The sub groups are Cars,Trucks,Vans, SUVs & Finance. They have an avg Click Thru rate of 1.47% and an avg quality score of 7/10. Of the 600 generics, less than 20 have a quality score < 6/10 and only 30 have a QS = 6/10

Ahhh... am I prefect? No. But your <1%? and it's relation to QS. You missed that so badly it makes me wonder why or how you missed it so bad. Not good.

Should you think I am "Cherry picking" the list to bend the numbers, lets look at the high volume entries. The top 10 generic phrases create 90% of the traffic (from all 600 entries in this group). The Top ten have an avg CTR of > 7%.

A few Examples are:

"used cars" = 7.9% CTR
"buy used cars" = 14.8% CTR
"used car for sale" = 19.05% CTR
buy used cars = 3.49% CTR
and on and on and on...

You need to evolve your vendor community voice. Your entire diatribe was all about you. You wrote:

"...Again, dealers should get educated, read as much as they can, then hire a firm with a proven track record to manage their PPC..."

Ouch. Like fingernails on a chalk board.

Jeffery, stop and re-read your replies. You forget where you are. This is very special community of extra-ordinary players that LEAD our industry higher. A water-cooler of higher learning. A community of uncommon fellows breaking new ground at every turn, both vendor and dealer. The dialogue here is not found on on daily dealer visits or the NADA show floor. Yes, there is an army of wanna-be readers, but even these players are very self motivated and hungry for thought provoking details. It just so happens these players got a late start and are just a few chapters back

Lastly,
Brian Pasch has single handedly pioneered dealer internet marketing education as his primary marketing effort. Sure, his education efforts drive other sales, but, isn't that why we're in Social Media? (yuk >:-] This is a common business model for consultants in many industries. Brian's openly transparent education is what he brings here every day. He's got thousands of hours invested in raising the bar for any dealer that wants to learn while they work the 'net.

So... before you drop bombs, earn up some community love from others. I am sure you have a lot of valuable insights. I'd love to read some of the jewels your view of the world has to our community.

A few examples:
Free Mystery Shopping http://forum.dealerrefresh.com/f5/mystery-shop-ti...

Free Chat with strong rules with solid ROI stats (a bedrock field study in conversion rates IMO) http://forum.dealerrefresh.com/f43/free-24-7-live...

How are your phone skills? http://forum.dealerrefresh.com/f5/how-your-phone-...

Brian, I'd like to challenge your premise. You write:

"...I would like to add that SEM is only effective if the clicks are taking consumers to proven landing pages that convert on the click. The automotive industry is just waking up to landing page conversion optimization...,"

May I challenge your observation? I am stuck in a conversion quandary, with great questions and no answers (yet).

I am exploring the consequence of optimizing for the "almighty conversion and nothing but the conversion" (as it applies to auto-dealer websites ONLY).

Is the submission of a form (aka conversion) our best measurement point to optimize against?

Can someone tell me or show me that THE seminal event prior to purchase is submitting a form? I'll ask another way... is there "A" singular seminal event that fuels the purchase? No?

If not, then if we optimize for "submitting a form", how do we guard against de-optimizing matters important to the "shopper who prefers stealth". We all know 98 of 100 shoppers never submit a form, yet, we optimize for it. Woa... don't rush to reply! Flip that observation over one more time. 85 out of 100 BUYERS were on your site prior to purchase. I'll say it again, 85 of 100 of your BUYERS were at your site yet, we're trying to up the count of a tool that converts at <20%? I wonder if we're aiming at the wrong target. See where I'm going?

It sure would be easier if the stealth auto shopper left us a big bright flag in the analytics that shows us the footprints of a "highly likely buyer". For example, how would you value a shopper that returns to your site for 2nd visit in 24 hours? I say... GAME ON! This shoppers on the hunt and you have what they want! I ask you, should that EXCELLENT METRIC have no weight? What if the highly optimized "squeeze page" blows up return visits?

Ecommerce has this single event called a "Checkout". This checkout has a 100% closing ratio. Lord knows, We are NOT ecommerce.

It goes deeper. We car guys don't have that clean, clear line in the sand like ecommerce. What good is more leads if they SUCK? Lead count could rise 30%, yet it may barely move the needle at the end of the month. Reps time with shoppers is part of the productivity/optimizing equation. It's entirely possible for reps to get tied up with the WRONG customers. Before you optimize for more leads you need a solid historical measure of the un-optimized closing ratio.

I do not have the answers (yet but, another issue that bothers me is WHO profits the most from optimizing pages for conversion? The HIPPO does. He sees more ROI (but can't visualize the downside because it's not measured). I've got no issues with the HIPPO, I'm paid the same way. We all here to get cars over the curb. I just WANT IT ALL

Lost and HUNGRY in Syracuse.

Background:
I've been following the conversion industry for a few years . As you know, if you step outside our vertical, page optimization is already in the 5th inning (while Larry Bruce is throwing the 1st pitch over the plate and no one's watching). And… like all things technical, we're a few years behind the Internet leaders. I’ve been following the brilliant work of Tim Ash of SiteTuners.com and the conversion rockstars at Conversion Rate Experts – Optimization for your website. There is an bunch of upside in conversion optimizing, but, it should be all about addressing the unanswered needs of the shopper 1st, then, the conversions should follow.

Not jumping in this argument because this is between Jeffrey T and Brian Pasch, but I want to point something out.

Metaphorically speaking....

Porsche is properly pronounced Por-sha; not Porsh. And SEM is total Search Engine Marketing to include both Pay Per Click and Organic Search. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_market...