Oh, and by the way -- ATC doesn't "control" any inventory -- the dealers do.

Kool-aid,

Obviously, based on your comments you do not know how the Comscore data is generated. You are exactly the problem with AT -- you think you know everything and the dealers know nothing. Too bad.

You think the KBB trade for Yahoo was "brilliant"? I rest my case.

I forgot to mention...Most consnumers appraise their trade or research at KBB.com, Edmunds.com, or NADA.com before they go into the dealership. ATC controls the inventory for all 3 sites! Good luck!

John B...Let's see...Cars.com averaged 8 million unique visitors per month in 2007. Leap forward to 2009 and according to the latest reports by commscore. Cars.com is down over 2008. However, Cars.com is around 10 million uniques per month. Where does the 3X increase come in? ATC on the other hand, had 14 million unique visitors in Feb 2007. Feb 2009 ATC had 15.8 million unique visitors. All ATC did in Dec 2007 was trade yahoo for KBB.com. It looks brilliant now doesn't it? BTW...I won't mention any names, but ATC's head honcho was at a conference with Cars.com's head honcho a couple of months ago and you know what Cars.com's guy said? I quote "We are 5 years behind you guys"! In the internet world, 5 years is an eternity.

Jim,

I liked your comments however Cars.com is not a "distant second" in reality. Here's why...

AT likes to use traffic sites like Alexa.com and Compete.com to compare themselves to Cars.com. These sites only count "organic searches" (the consumer typed in a specific internet site on their browser). It does not take into account Site Traffic as a result of Cars.com (and AT for that matter's) site Partnerships.

Cars.com Partnered to provide dealer inventories to Yahoo in December 2007. Since then, the site traffic has more than almost tripled. The growth is not just because of Yahoo, but Yahoo grew it significantly.

Do you ever wonder why you can not see your history data on AT's Dealer Center prior to January 1, 2008? (They must not want you to be able to compare what happened after they lost Yahoo to Cars.com.) What a crock!

Mike,

Keep spewing that nonsense about "a limited number of Partnerships available in a DMA". You drank the Kool-aid.

A District Manager can (and will) approve any number of AT Partnerships in a given DMA. True, there are a set number of guidelines per make, but the District Manager does not need to follow them. Also, AT will zone out a DMA (by Zip Code) in some DMAs. This means that a dealer, although they are paying Premium, may not have all the zip codes in their own DMA. And don't get me started on the Conquest package that allows dealers in other DMAs to buy into your DMA!

The truth is that if the dealers stopped paying for the Premium space, they would still all be on the site. The ones that are still paying for Premium (foolishly) are competing against themselves when the other dealers in their make figure this out.

Save the money and you will do as well in the Featured section of AT. If you see worse results (I doubt it), AT will always take more money from you if you decide to go back to Premium listings.

Before you guys spend big money with ATC or Cars.com, make sure you are tracking the ACTUAL independent leads generated from these guys and DO NOT RELY on the reports that they send you with crap like web clicks, etc.

I saved my dealership $5000/mth because my salespeople were telling me we had sold 20 vehicles off of ATC that month, but my call tracking only registered 20 calls MTD -- off of a 5000 spend! That averaged to $250 per car lead??? Anyway, I cancelled right away, and have noticed no drop in my units sold through.

Like it or not, it's the age of the internet. And from the venom spilled here by a some crying sour grapes because the price they paid ten years ago to be on ATC was one tenth what they probably pay for ATC today. Yet the amount of unique buyers that visit ATC monthly are 10 times what they were back in the day.
ATC is the big dog on the block, with Cars.com at a distant second, yet a formidable foe. So if your angst is about the price of the top level, don't buy it. Thats why there is a middle level. After working in newspapers for years, the dealers would moan about the price of a full page ad and would buy a quarter page instead. Did they sell as many cars? Probably not, but they usually sold enough to easily pay for the ad.

So if you compare ATC to buying cheaper plastic spoons, maybe your customers can only afford cheaper spoons and its time to expand your customer base to include those that can afford the better quality spoon. If you dislike a company because of bad experiences in the past, you should be elated that an internet giant like ATC is reaching out to it's customer base and it's lost customers that have left them to try to right the ship. If your venom for ATC is so strong that you would never give them a second chance, you should at least consider Cars.com.
People were angry at the newspapers because there was always somebody else buying the full page ads that they couldn't afford, or wouldn't. Some people here have a hate for ATC because other dealers pay the price for a service that works for them and the sales generated by ATC justifies their cost.

John B
The bottom line is why is there a Premium section? Because dealers asked for it. How many times do you think a dealer has said; or asked for his cars to be on top? If you were talking radio or television; it's how can I get my spots in prime time? Newspaper; how can I get the front cover; back cover; right hand page? The answer is always the same; you pay a premium for it. That's just business! The market drives the price.

As to the fact that there is a limited number of front or back pages in newspaper; limited prime time spots in electronic media; well ATC limits the number of Premium partners in any specific make. A GM partnership won't be sold to unlimited GM dealers in a market. There are only a few partnerships available per make in each DMA.

Mike,

Your comparison to newspaper placement is exactly the problem with AT. AT is an internet site trying structure itself like a newspaper.

Dealers and Consumers are not served by the tiered structure and Pricing on the Autotrader site... only Autotrader.

AT has convinced dealers that there truly is value to being in the top spot. The problem is that ANYONE can be in the top spot. As time goes on, the value is even more degraded as more and more dealers in particular market take the bait.

In these lean times, dealers all over are starting to realize this and cutting their AT spend to the "Featured" position on the site. AT's lack of high trafficked partner sites is degrading their impact on the dealer's bottom line. The latest push on the New Car side is showing their desperation to retain income.

Your newspaper analogy is flawed. What you fail to realize, is that there is ONLY ONE front and back of a newspaper for advertising purposes. There is no such limitation on a Website.

I am not saying do not advertise on Autotrader. I am suggesting that the "Emperor" has a lot less Clothes on than he used to!

meant to say above “...in order to
pre-prepare IN ADVANCE and utilise forward planning… ”

At the end of the day, there's a paradigm shift of the strategic staircase; to reverse wrongsiding the demographic by leveraging talents and display and inspire unyielding integrity thru living the values and a reduction in workforce.
Strategic intiatives focus on the next level drill-down to granularity, cascading down new information to staff and feeding it back to our stakeholders, who must come to the party or be left out. And also in addition, to aggregate bandwidth at the close of play by actioning ROI, since we'd better not let the grass grow too long on this one unless we've captured the low-hanging fruit. By capturing and employing 360-degree thinking we are still optimistic things will feed through the sales and delivery pipeline, in order to
pre-prepare and utilise forward planning and ensure the balance sheet by sprinkling our magic throughout the enterprise. We need a holistic, cradle-to-grave approach and, as product evangelists, loop back to our clients
and touch base, and exchange idea-showers offline. From the get-go, we must... we shall... let us now... go forward together in this space.

As to the selling of positioning on ATC. All media does it. Radio and Television charge more for prime time spots. The newspaper gives the back or front page of the section to the biggest contract. Google and Yahoo charge more to be listed first. It's like Reale estate; it's all about location; location; location.

... meant to say above "This is why you really DON'T see your AT rep until cancellation time"...

As a former AT employee, it is not surprising that you did not get the service you needed after the sale at AT. It was never the focus of management.

AT's business model is flawed and is not customer(dealer)centered. I realized this early in my stint there and it sickened me. Look at the Tiered Structure of the site. (Premium, Featured, Standard.) It is all about squeezing more out of the dealers. The "new car" suite is absolutely ludicrous.

Yes, print (especially) is slowly dying (look at the reported bankruptcies in the Newspaper industry). Okay. Just because you have spent $40K a month on print in the past doesn't mean you have to spend that much forever. Your margins are shrinking and so should your entire ad spend to compensate. The internet the current solution to this problem.

In early 2007, AT took away the bonus paid on the rep's book of business. Reps at AT are paid to sell new contracts. And penalized 100% if you cancel. This is why you really see your rep until cancellation time.

AT seems to be trying to change the course of their corporate culture, but this is a big ship to turn around.

Unfortunately, at AT there are a lot of people in place in management that have always used weekly quotas and fear tactics (getting "written up") to motivate the sales people. Many people under this kind of pressure from their company do not have the strength to think about anyone but themselves. You, the Dealer customers have been on the short end of that deal for a LONG time.

Wow; as a new ATC Ad consultant; all this pent up venom really surprised me. I've been with ATC since June 08. Prior to that it was five years with the Big daily Newspaper selling auto dealers; where we raised rates 7% every year.I had at least three dealers spending close to $1 million per year with me. I could see and hear the changing advertising environment; where these dealers were all headed towards the internet. In fact; it was some of my larger dealers that suggested I should try and get a job with ATC; as they found it gave them the best bang for their buck. As a competitive vendor I thought that ATC and cars.com were ridiculously cheap; as my average account spent $40k per month with me at the newspaper.

Before that I sold the top Adults 25-54 radio station in Silicon Valley to auto dealers. That too wasn't perfect; as often my dealers would get several of their prime time spots bumped off the air for higher rate spots; even though the dealer had an annual contract.
The average spend here was $15,000 per month.

I think the pricing of ATC or any rate increases are not really the issue. The issue is that you weren't getting enough service for your investment. I can assure you that ATC is working to correct that. All the sales people now receive about 50% of their commisions based on service metrics. If you haven't done the things to make the dealer successful; you don't get paid.

I would have to say; of all the media I have worked for ATC is the most customer focused and it shows in the dealer retention. So; please forgive us for any mistakes we've made. We are working to get better.

Soon, when it's too late, you'll see what I'm talking about. I'll let all of you find out for yourselves. For years, no one at the SEC wanted to listen to Harry Markopolis when he warned them about Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. David Metter was "encouraged" to post here.

Joe--
Lay off of David Metter. He didn't drink too much of the Kool-Aid. If you're familiar at all with the Mile One Group, you'd know they are one of the largest and most successful dealer groups on the east coast, with or without AutoTrader.com. There was a time when the a large portion of his group wasn't even on ATC in my market, so it's not like he's in deep with them. He's giving his opinion in an open forum, and I think it's in bad taste for people to attack him, JUST BECAUSE he likes ATC and you don't. If dealers could get off their high horse, embrace the Internet, and realize ATC is worth the spend, there wouldn't be an issue here. I've seen dealers spend SO much more on newspaper, radio and TV it's HORRIBLE. With no ROI. And for those who used to work for ATC and are attacking them? Well, yes, they had steep goals, sometimes almost unattainable, but you're in SALES. If you can't hack it, get out. If they put you out, you failed to do what they asked you to do. Plain and simple. ATC is not the big bad wolf. And no, I don't even work for a Trader related company anymore. I just kept the name A) because I've used it a lot before when I was working there, and B) because I'm proud of my time with the company, it helped accelerate me into the salesperson I am today.

Dealers...former employees... PLEASE, stop the name calling, the finger pointing, and the drama. Move on. AutoTrader.com--What they do DOES work.

Peace.

Oh yea, the Kool-Aid flows freely and all are required to overindulge; same as with the HEAVY drinking, high fiving and back stab... er back slapping, self congratulatory narcissism. You're about to be bamboozled again. David Metter, you're a trip!
How much did you sell your soul for?

Trader Hokie-
Yes, the same. Alpha Dominator.....
On top of the $6500 or so we pay as a partner an additional $3000/mo. That is for one Line. I'm a C/J/D store and all three for $6000/mo.

There has to be a point of diminishing returns for both AT and a dealer. I am glad I have a well performing website, well optimized and branded. Maybe I'll give them the heave ho.

One more thing… I hate to put it this way, but ATC IS a necessary evil for dealers everywhere. It’s not their fault, they just built something that works. No, really. When they say “WHAT WE DO WORKS” they have the numbers and research to back it up. Every industry has a leader, they are it. And Cars.com is right there with them, neck and neck.
Do you want to sell cars? Do you want to make sure you do it as cheaply as possible? Do you want to make sure that EVERY dollar is TARGETED, and that there are NO wasted ad dollars? In this economy, you can’t afford to waste money.
The sole purpose of sites like AutoTrader.com and Cars.com is to bring car buyers and sellers together. Period. The same is NOT true for radio, TV, newspaper, or direct mail. They are “reach-preachers.” But if a TV or radio station reached 1,000,000 people, only a small percentage of people are looking to buy a car. You just wasted A LOT of money on people NOT in the market to buy. In this economy, are you looking to reach those who are looking to buy today, or those who are looking to buy 3 months from now (which isn’t going to help keep you in business into next month)?
Yes, I know you like the branding, and seeing your face on TV Mr. Dealer, and your company name. But it’s not about you, it’s about the consumer. Trust me. Leave the car selling to you, leave the advertising to us. Image ads don’t sell cars. Product ads do. That’s advertising 101.
AutoTrader.com’s top package is probably around $5,000-$6000 for a Tier-1 partnership at this point, for like, Ford or Chevy. I know TV schedules, and radio schedules, that cost A LOT more weekly.
Monthly, the totals are shocking (and I don’t care if they give you bonus spots, if you look at something like a TapScan report, you’ll see that NO ONE is listening on the overnight or weekend day-parts). Ask your broadcast reps for an Arbitron or Nielsen report, that reflects the RETAIL SPENDING POWER of their station. You’d be surprised how many actually intend to spend money on a new or used car this year. This information IS available, no matter what they tell you. You’ll be shocked to see what your true reach is, and how it actually affects your ROI.
With regards to newspaper and other print products, yes, they are places where people DO go to look for cars, but not a lot of people. Yet I’ve seen what some of you spend on the newspaper! I’m SHOCKED! Consumers want as much information on the car (photos, COMPLETE descriptions) and the seller as they can possibly get before making a decision, and the Internet gives you more of that than any other place, with little to no effort on the part of the consumer. Just point and click, from the comfort of your own home. The newspaper does not. TV does not. Radio does not. The product value/effectiveness doesn’t justify the spend.

Bill--
What's the Dominator package? Is it that big orange ad at the top of the page? With the banner in the middle of the page, and the ad that pops up before the search results?
And if so, you say it's $3,000 a month?
This must be similar to the Alpha dealer package they were working on before... And now it's just an add on?

One more thing… I hate to put it this way, but ATC IS a necessary evil for dealers everywhere. It’s not their fault, they just built something that works. No, really. When they say “WHAT WE DO WORKS” they have the numbers and research to back it up. Every industry has a leader, they are it. And Cars.com is right there with them, neck and neck.
Do you want to sell cars? Do you want to make sure you do it as cheaply as possible? Do you want to make sure that EVERY dollar is TARGETED, and that there are NO wasted ad dollars? In this economy, you can’t afford to waste money.
The sole purpose of sites like AutoTrader.com and Cars.com is to bring car buyers and sellers together. Period. The same is NOT true for radio, TV, newspaper, or direct mail. They are “reach-preachers.” But if a TV or radio station reached 1,000,000 people, only a small percentage of people are looking to buy a car. You just wasted A LOT of money on people NOT in the market to buy. In this economy, are you looking to reach those who are looking to buy today, or those who are looking to buy 3 months from now (which isn’t going to help keep you in business into next month)?
Yes, I know you like the branding, and seeing your face on TV Mr. Dealer, and your company name. But it’s not about you, it’s about the consumer. Trust me. Leave the car selling to you, leave the advertising to us. Image ads don’t sell cars. Product ads do. That’s advertising 101.
AutoTrader.com’s top package is probably around $5,000-$6000 for a Tier-1 partnership at this point, for like, Ford or Chevy. I know TV schedules, and radio schedules, that cost A LOT more weekly.
Monthly, the totals are shocking (and I don’t care if they give you bonus spots, if you look at something like a TapScan report, you’ll see that NO ONE is listening on the overnight or weekend day-parts). Ask your broadcast reps for an Arbitron or Nielsen report, that reflects the RETAIL SPENDING POWER of their station. You’d be surprised how many actually intend to spend money on a new or used car this year. This information IS available, no matter what they tell you. You’ll be shocked to see what your true reach is, and how it actually affects your ROI.
With regards to newspaper and other print products, yes, they are places where people DO go to look for cars, but not a lot of people. Yet I’ve seen what some of you spend on the newspaper! I’m SHOCKED! Consumers want as much information on the car (photos, COMPLETE descriptions) and the seller as they can possibly get before making a decision, and the Internet gives you more of that than any other place, with little to no effort on the part of the consumer. Just point and click, from the comfort of your own home. The newspaper does not. TV does not. Radio does not. The product value/effectiveness doesn’t justify the spend.

It’s time to get with the program.

Ok. So I've decided to put my two cents in here. I've been lurking around here too, and have been reading a lot of the same stuff on a bunch of different message boards. The conversations aren't that different from what I am hearing from former co-workers.
I used to work for Trader myself. I started as an inside sales rep for TraderOnline for the old Trader Publishing. I went to work for Auto Trader Magazines as an outside sales rep, went to work then for the Alpha Dog of them all, AutoTrader.com as an outside sales rep, and then jumped divisions into a regional sales training position for AutoExtra.com.
I, like many others out there, have had my share of angry moments at our (former) company. But if I step back for a minute, and try to be objective, I have to say, it wasn’t all bad. During my time with the Cox organization(s), I was able to very quickly move from inside sales to outside sales to working for the flagship to being a regional sales specialist. All in about 4-5 years. What other company offers you the opportunity for growth like that? So for that, I am and will always be grateful.

HOWEVER. I too fell victim to layoffs this time last year from my regional position. So I know the pain of what those who were recently let go, are going through. I have to step back for a minute and say something about the demise of our company, Cox Auto Trader/Auto Mart. As a team, we are responsible for where it ended up. And don’t get angry guys, this is just my opinion, and my experience.
I hear a lot of reps complain, about the fact that upper management didn’t care about what was going on, and what changes were being made. Well for someone who actually made it into a management position, and got to actually talk one-on-one with district managers and regional managers, I can say they were doing what they had to do, and were doing the best they could.
AutoExtra.com had the potential to be a great site. They even brought over Joe George, one of the originators on the AutoTrader.com team, to oversee it. I remember having a conversation with him at a team meeting, about how we were in a truly good place at the right time—at a very similar place he once saw AutoTrader.com at. We had a fighting chance, it was just going to take time.
The reps however, (and this goes for AutoMart as well, as I heard about problems with rate integrity, dealer maintenance, and lack of sales enthusiasm from my AutoMart.com counterparts), failed to effectively position, sell, and service their internet products. They treated it simply as an add-on, or would HIDE it, and its cost, in the weekly invoice. I myself tried to share all of the practices I had learned with AutoTrader.com, with my reps, and very few took it to heart. They couldn’t see past the print, instead of looking at the total-market solution of print and internet, that would bring their dealers good leads. They tried to blame the site, the team in Norfolk—everyone but themselves for why it failed. Search engine marketing was our only main form of advertising? Well if the inventory isn’t there it’s not going to show up in searches! If the dealers aren’t there, the site won’t work! CAT and CAM gave reps a way to offset the costs of the print, and if they had done a better job, ACROSS THE COUNTRY, the division wouldn’t have fallen. Internet revenues with smaller overheads could have balanced out the print revenues with the higher overheads. Now yes, some reps had every dealer on an internet package, but if in one office, one city, your entire team isn’t on board, it just won’t work. And if nationally, you don’t build it, it won’t work.
I understand everyone feels hurt, angry, betrayed, lost. I was there too. And some days, I still find myself wandering back asking “what if?” But what’s done, is done. It’s time to take that anger, frustration, and sadness, and refocus all that energy. It’s time to move on. Believe me, I’ve been there.
THAT’S NOT TO SAY, AutoTrader.com didn’t have its shortcoming’s either.
I came on board in June 2006 as an Advertising Consultant, and while I was excited, and happy to be there, the honeymoon would soon come to an end. I took over a territory that had been DEMOLISHED with regards to ATC’s reputation.
Previous to me coming on board, 2 reps in that area and a sales manager, were all let go due to VERY shady practices. They had been giving dealers “free” product, such as upgrades to featured plus, or spotlight power packs, and then charging them later. “Don’t worry, they’ll thank me!” When the dealers refused to pay because they didn’t ask for the product, they were put into collections, or paid the balance to not ruin their own credit, and then cancelled ATC. Then of course, there was also the practice of selling, putting them live, and then never going back in the dealership again. Dealers LOVE that.
Now you all out there know dealers talk to each other. You can imagine how big of a fight it was then, for me to come on board, and try to work against such horrible experiences. And ATC management, WAS aware. However, they didn’t grant me any leniency. Yep, I made sales, but when times got rough because of the many uphill battles I was fighting, they were VERY quick to put you on a performance plan. Managers, as great as they were (and I REALLY DID respect my first DM at AutoTrader.com), couldn’t see past their own ambition to move up the ranks. I had a new manager come on and try to have a “come to Jesus” meeting with me, yet he had NEVER been out in the field with me, and didn’t even know my abilities as a sales rep. So, I knew it was time to move on, and was given the opportunity to move up. (This is part of why you, as dealers, saw such high rep turnover in your dealerships from ATC…their AMBITION, that sometimes border-lined on GREED…actually hurt them).
I’ve met Chip Perry. He is a great guy, and a very powerful, motivational speaker. So I believe when he says they are shifting focus this year to becoming more service oriented. And I believe it will be what’s good for ATC. And I believe in the power of AutoTrader.com.
Sorry I’ve rambled, my Red Bull hasn’t kicked in yet…
David, great post, and as someone who used to work with Mile One dealerships, you definitely have my respect and appreciation for what you do.

David,

Please keep doing guest posts they are interesting and I want you to know that I am a big fan. Keep up the good work.

Everyone,

As competitive as we maybe sometimes be with another we need to remember that we are in this together as one big team. We are the people that move this industry and control it with our experiences, references, and comments. I came to this conclusion yesterday when I sat in a room with vendors and dealers at NADA and watched two former president's speak. I saw how united we were and how we were like a family.