Clarion Hotel - that is being discussed over here: http://www.dealerrefresh.com/my_weblog/2007/12/the-monday-refr.html

Here is an interesting link that tells "the rest of the story" about the quality of a 3rd party site and cars.com in particular. Yahoo may have stepped in some doo doo here, but, at least they "made the sale" to cars.com:

Frank S:

you said:
"I believe the "psychology" in the consumers mind in using these sites has changed dramatically over the past two year period as internet advertising is always a changing venue"

I think you are right, it has.

Our 3rd, 4th gen Internet car buyers have gained confidence here lately with all their iPodding, blogging, twittering, youtubbing, googling, ebaying, whatelse...myspacing, facebooking, texting, cellphone-camming, and second-lifing.

They weren't really doing all these things 6-7 years ago. They know the game better. They have been 'screwed' at least 10 times throughout their online history. Not just by us.

Do consumers really need the services of third-party (middlemen) anymore? They were surely needed in the past because there was a severe deficiency in dealer websites from '95 - '02. I'm just throwing it out there, I don't know right now. There is still a segment of the market to reach through it, but the watering hole seems to be getting smaller.

Now, our Internet customers have all sorts of confidence and are coming right at us to our dealer websites expecting some personalized services.

They still have a weakness though - they like to have a good time.

I see my cars.com & autotrader.com reps every month. We have a good relationship. Over the past year our used car activity has gone down considerably from both venues. Our dealership does market new vehicles on both sites and we get very little attention on either. We have decided to cut back on both ATC & cars.com products this year and increase our ad spend with SEO & SEM and are considering adding online display advertising w/a local vendor. We have seen real growth in activity from SEO & SEM in conjunction with manuf new vehicle promotion in our market for the past 6 mos or so. The latter has been driving much more phone traffic, sourced deals than either of our third party classified sites products have been experiencing. Are others having the same results? Seeing my rep is great but having the products provide less results for an increase in costs is the issue. Third party classified sites are good, don't get me wrong, but I believe the "psychology" in the consumers mind in using these sites has changed dramatically over the past two year period as internet advertising is always a changing venue we are changing our ad spend to reflect where we have been seeing the lions share of growth in customer activity.

Ruby dear,

The dealers in my area tell me they never hear from their (see the proper use of their and there) cars.com rep and quite a few have canceled cars.com because of that. So, just because the ATC rep in your area is not doing their job properly, don't generalize that they are all that way because it's not a fact, any more than all cars.com reps are "constantly" in touch with their dealers. It just isn't so.

I think it's great that you're enthusiastic about your company...you obviously have been sipping the cars.com kool-aid. But that doesn't mean you should exaggerate and tell untruths about your competitors just to make your company look better.

Is it true that cars.com is raising their rates 20% for all dealers by March 31st?

Not a problem T.J. I am so excited about everything we are doing at Cars.com and want to make sure everyone knows it.

I wish your NY Giants luck.

Ruby - thanks for sharing -I will definitely be watching as I'm sure it will be my NY GIANTS vs. the Pats :0) for a rematch thats needs to be made as we have some unfinished business as the wrong ELI gave up that game to them.

Wayne and T.J. you couldn't be more right when saying "Price only matters in the absense of value". I find that more Auto Trader customers are dropping them because they are always raising there price but not adding more value. They soley rely on there name Auto Trader, yes Auto Trader is very well know nation wide, but watch out because Cars.com is also known nation wide. If you do not know who/what Cars.com is you will. I PROMISE! We have increased our advertising/marketing budget to $200 MILLION for 2008. More exposure for Cars.com is more exposure for all of our dealer partners that are on with us. Yes that's right Dealer Partners, everyone is a partner with us. Dealers are not just customers and money to us, they are partners with Cars.com. We don't just call to collect payment or to make the sale. We are in constant contact with our dealers to make sure they are successful. We answer their questions and work out their issues right away. In addition to Auto Trader raising prices and not adding value, I have also heard many times that they only care about the sale. I have dealers that hardly ever see or hear from there Auto Trader rep.

Oh and if you haven't figured it out yeah, I am not ashamed of where I work. I am an ISM for Cars.com

Go Cars.com!!! Watch February 3rd to see us at the Super Bowl.

"We don't have to appease our vendors to get them to work with us - we pay them. That should be enough to start."

I didn't want to be that obvious, maybe I should have said - Open other dealers' eyes.

wayne - agreed on all statements

sometimes companies choose to go the wrong way in my opinion
shareholders -employees - customers

sometimes they run a company like Southwest Airlines one of the most profitable airlines in history in its prime(haven't kept up on what they are doing now) and focus on the customers (external) first, then internal (employees) - and shareholder value comes all on its own with this focus or alignment
CUSTOMERS - employees - Shareholders

good blog about it here: but it looks like you already get this point -some companies lose sight.

TJ,

"Price only matters in the absense of value"

That's right on. Where's the beef?

Why can't ATC also provide us with a click history of their leads so we know what they were looking at, how often, etc?

Its because they're not thinking about the problems hard enough, just pointing fingers and deflecting the argument back onto us.

It's easier to raise prices to satisfy their stakeholders then think outside the box.

great post Wayne, and I agree about the "identify" yourself it seems the anonymity of internet helps vendors do a hit and run - blast a comment but not share what company or market they represent.

I take comments from people like that with a grain of salt..it's funny how I find that there hasn't been a comment about ATC pricing being raised higher every year for two weeks and ATC just had annual meeting.. coincidence?

maybe Scott James just came out of the ATC vs. Traditional Media traingings as he was sharing his thoughts on TV ads- sell exposure not leads meetings -

I say ATC as great value in certain markets with certain brands in each market - bottomline is its all about ROI - Price only matters in the absence of value.

Alex,

We don't have to appease our vendors to get them to work with us - we pay them. That should be enough to start. Sure, if they do a good job, that could build a foundation for friendship, but not before they produce results. I've been chummy with vendors when they are producing. But when they stop, we don't hear from them again. No one calls me after they are let go. So much for being friends.

We shouldn't have to worry if our vendors will work with us or not. If they don't, they'll likely go out of business. If a vendor won't work with me now because I'm calling them out, that's weak.

But when a vendor does produce, we'll put them on our shoulders and carry them like they are champs. We've provide MANY referrals to the vendors who are 'productive' partners. There is a two-way street, but the vendors have give first.

I'm all for a big love fest, but there are some problems that need to be addressed. Conversion is dropping. Why have a I read from many here that say we're behind other industries? If we are, which I do believe we are, who's fault is that? Ours.

And if a vendor wants to get on here and complain about us complaining, at least stand up and identify yourself - provide a link.

Scott,

Thank you for your comment. I don't think anyone on Dealer Refresh would ever dispute your point on investing more in eCommerce ventures. We're mostly eCommerce people here.

The spirit of this thread has nothing to do with whether Automotive eCommerce is accepted, it is quite the opposite: Automotive eCommerce has been accepted, but one of the players has gotten a little out of hand. We want our vendors to work with us, be our friends/our partners, but understand that when they get out of line we are going to use the Internet to open their eyes. Our customers taught this strategy to us, and now we're using it.

I can't believe all the bellyaching BS from you folks. When Cable TV was in it's infancy, you could buy spots on CNN for a frickin Dollar. A Buck to maybe 5 bucks a spot. AND..you would get a 24 R.O.S. Remember??? You would get TONS of "Spots" for pennies on the dollar...of...get this...people staring at a screen. (But...you only got their attention for 30 seconds). Now the cost of a TV spot on CNN is over 100 to 200 times the price you paid even in some cases 10 years ago. Your Television Advertising: MAYBE your POSSIBLE...CUSTOMER...STARING AT A SCREEN...for 30 seconds maybe 10 feet away , IF you happen to catch them not taking a wizz and IF they are not fast-forwarding through hyped up BS "COME IN NOW FOR THE BEST DEAL OF THE CENTURY...$4000 FOR YOUR TRADE SALE!...blah blah blah flavor of the month...it worked in this market over in Nebraska and they sold 100 units ...puke.) VS. PEOPLE STARING AT A SCREEN (18-34 year old males in the market to BUY A FRICKIN CAR....For not 30 seconds...NOT 3 minutes...FOR ALMOST 30 MINUTES! Wait a minute...what is ADVERTISING? Is there at least SOME element of EXPOSURE? What are you nuts? What Radio Rep or TV Rep is giving you a report of ANY kind other than "Here's who we THINK( is not taking a wizz or Fast forwarding through your) MAYBE SAW FOR 30 SECONDS...Your lame azz ad. 30 Seconds. VS. 30 Minutes. 10 Feet away looking at a screen or 2 Feet looking at a screen. A bit distracted...waiting for the show to come back on...or completely engaged looking at your vehicle. Why did Google spend a Billion on You Tube?
TRY THIS "EXPERIMENT"..

Nix your T.V. Budget For a Year. Just your TV....and re-invest it all in ATC, CARS, 3rd parties...your own site, ebay, ALL OF IT. INVEST in a STRONG Internet Manager or Team that KNOWS THE CAR BUSINESS AND IS STRONG ON THE PHONES. Use EVERY tool that every Internet 3rd party provides and make your own site as strong as well with Key Words. But...don't sit there and complain about the ROI at this point in the GROWTH and SHIFT of dollars away from traditional media...it's happening anyway...get over it. Maybe ATC is just ahead of the curve in their rates...maybe their not. They are probably high...for now. I heard my rep say "Only 8% from now on". Fine. Whatever.

Facts:

Autotrader.com will raise all dealers with them less than a year by 30% by 3/31/08. Dealers on longer than a year with them should expect a "legacy" rate increase of 8% by 3/31/08 automatically.

Cars.com will also be bumping up rates on all dealers by aprox 20% also by 3/31/08.

We are entering a "recessive" economy.

Take it for what it's worth but it's unfortunately the truth.

Our dealership has been advertising with autotrader.com since 2000. We had the same rep for about 2 years then we got another rep who just left the company this year in June. We had a very good relationship w/our last rep, he seemed to really care about our online marketing and provided us with consistant training on the back end tools, etc. We do "ok" with them on pre-owned sales and source about three or four units a month from them. The features they added this year have really not brought us any noticable difference in traffic on our pre owned inventory our new inventory gets minimal attention, we do well with calls from Cars.com on new vehicles. I see many have mentioned the price increases of late, how much are we really talking about here? Our rates went up about 25% in the Spring but some have mentioned they are planning on raising rates again in the first quarter of next year? is this the case? Our rep with them now is "ok" but knows little or nothing obout the car business and has that deer in the headlights gaze if you know what I mean. Where is autotrader.com going in the next coming year? I'd like to get more from them than we have been getting, it's been half decent but I'm looking for more bang for the buck if you will, it's been "flat" w/them for the past year or so. The ROI has been ok but I'm coming to realize if we're paying 50% more to advertise w/them in the past year and a half, why hasn't our amount of sourced deals grown w/this increase?

C'mon Nate - don't be so obvious.

Richard - please continue to participate on Dealer Refresh, and maybe one day we can catch up offline.

I just wanted to clarify that by no means did anyone from Autotrader ask or coach me into posting any good comments on here for them. Everything I said in the comments I posted earlier was from my own experience and thoughts of them. Just over the past six months my internet sales have skyrocketed. I credit all my available resources from vendors and reps., going back to the basics and good ole' training. I would be foolish to cancel my listings on autotrader.com...Merry Christmas everyone!

Linda - I can't say anything about working for AutoTrader.com because I've never worked for them. There is a lot of turnover in the automotive industry in general (I think I heard 60% in the first year is the national average), but is ATC a tech company (less turnover) or an automotive company? Some of the previous ATC employees can probably comment better to your questions.

I'm really responding to you because your question about LA got my wheels turning. My official response on LA is that I don't know - I've only visited. You did get me thinking about my own market though. Why would a dealer from Newport News (Richard Klepach a few comments before) come on here saying nice things about ATC aside from our rep asking him to? Why does AutoTrader.com not work for Checkered Flag after multiple tries over many years? Why does the magazine work for us, but not the site? Why do my more-immediate competitors feel the same way I do?

Is it because AutoTrader appeals to an audience that buys cars under a certain price point?

I'm going to come off a little snobby with this next remark, but I recently started seeing AutoMart everywhere (that's another story...a more positive one though!) - my local grocery store and even a few places I grab lunch. I never see an AutoTrader. I went to K-Mart the other day followed by a stop at a Food Lion (also another story) and I finally found a ton of AutoTraders. In my area it seems like the AutoTrader rag has been targeting a lower-economical segment. It then occurred to me most of our ATC calls, over the last 3 months, were about credit issues. Had magazine placement over the years driven a market segment to the website?

Most of the franchised dealers in my area cater to a new car customer. If AutoTrader has been painted as something for a used car customer (a customer independent dealers, here, cater to) naturally it isn't going to work for us. It explains why we get better results through Cars.com and probably will be receiving from AutoMart soon (another Cox Media company).

So Linda, maybe you should look at the LA market yourself. Where have the magazines been sold? Do you find them in places where a $20+ bottle of wine is as foreign as Japanese? If yes, do you want to work with independent dealers and fight with franchised dealers? If no, do you work with franchised dealers and fight with independents?

I have a crazy theory that print isn't fully dead. The effects of print are still being felt amongst the companies who are still in the printing business. If you're an automotive classified company, where have your people been sticking your rag all these years?

Do you think Autotrader.com works for dealerships in Los Angeles?
I have been approached for employment with them, your blog has left me thinking about it.
However, I was previously working on advertising, and know that as compared to other Media, Internet's performance is getting better while the other media (specially newspaper and print) are cutting their rates. So I think their rate increase is in line with the changes on the market.
I also noticed tons of job postings nationwide for auto trader. They are either trying to be very aggresive or the turnover is high as some of you say.
I'll appreciate any feedback, thanks.

There is a trick to using AutoTrader.com, should you choose to continue with AutoTrader.com considering the jacked up prices.

Sign up for low level pricing (Toyota puts out $1400 of the bill) then, if using Dealer Specialties or a varient... call them and upload you New Car inventory to AutoTrader.com.

You need real pics, not stock photos and try not to involve AutoTrader.com reps.

I sell about 10 - 12 NEW CARS in additional to pre-owned sales per month doing this and is saves me thousands because I am not signed up on the new car end of Autotrader. People looking for a used Camry sees my new one listed in at the discounted price.

Got shot down pretty hard core there DS by Katherine! Thanks for the great info Kat!
It is pure greed when it comes down to it. They don't care about their dealer at all unfortunatly, just the $$ in their pocket!

Take a hike AT along with your hand bag DS!

Jason and all.

Jason I am in your camp, we all know that customers like to shop incognito.

I am about to revamp our post sale survey to get better info. I like you you've found a way to uncover stealth shoppers.

If anyone has a survey that they lean on, Please post your survey queries here.

Thnx,
Joe

1) we've had 4 reps in 12 months!

2) AT calls have dropped nearly 50% over the past year.

3) the only goods news i have regarding AT: customer surveys did show 50% of our AT deals never called or emailed us - they just showed up and went under the radar and were logged as 'drive-ups'. But then, this was true for EVERY internet medium - turned out 60% of our customers said the internet was what brought them in.

4) AT has the worse ROI for us when compared to other iternet initiatives, which are now soley AT, cars.com, craigslist, sem/seo for our own website.

5) new cars were dropped from premium plus to standard for us - yet we got just as many leads. makes me wonder if we should just become a standard advertiser with our used cars.

As soon as I can find somehwere else to invest the money, autotrader is gone. maybe ebay motors..