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Used Cars - CarGurus.com - vAuto and the Travel Industry

Joe,

My name is Langley Steinert. I'm the ceo/founder of CarGurus. I wanted to get back to you with some thoughts on your post above. You raise some interesting points


Information or the “lack of information” is troubling for both consumers and dealers. Our goal is, hopefully, to provide the same accurate information to both parties.
In my prior life, I was co-founder/Chairman of TripAdvisor, which is the largest online travel site in the world. At TripAdvisor we similarly worked hard to provide information (user reviews) to consumers. In the end, providing more information to consumers benefited both shoppers and hoteliers in the form of increased sales.
We are hoping to do the same here in the online autos space.
I looked into the listings that you mentioned and have a few observations:
1. Information is freely accessible – Our site has a pricing page for each car manufactured since 1965. On that page you can see exactly how we arrived at the pricing for that car (ie we show all the recent listings that we use to arrive at a price recommendation based on mileage, trim, etc). Our analytics are not a black box. Below is the URL for the 2007 Acura RDX that you had concerns about. If your sales folks are concerned about not having the same information as consumers, I would urge them to check out our site. It’s free.
2007 Acura RDX Price - CarGurus
2. Dealer input – Based on your input, we have decided to institute a dealer input channel so dealers can give us input on listings that they believe we have improperly priced/classified. If we find a listing has improper price guidance, we will change it within 48 hours. We do want to be responsive to dealer concerns.
3. The specific listings you mention – I did go and look at the 2007 Acura RDX listings you mentioned and we had 3 listings from your dealership for that car/year. All three were missing trim information which makes their classification complicated. If we assume the least expensive trim (base trim), all three listings are priced between $600 and $1,500 above the national average for their respective mileage. Without more trim information it is hard for consumers and our analytic engine to properly evaluate a listing. Based on the information we were given, these cars do appear to be priced above the national average. If you can let us know the trim, we would be happy to change the price recommendation.
Again, our goal is to provide a level field of information to both dealers and consumers and to be transparent in doing so. Each month we receive over 3 Million in-market shoppers looking for a car. We hope we can send some of those buyers your way.
Sincerely,

Langley Steinert
CEO/Founder – CarGurus
 
Joe,

Well thought out, worded, and targeted request that was sent to them (Cars.com). I am glad they saw the light and are taking action.

Just a side note that your vehicles probably won't disappear, just be posted through another provider (Like Dealix - see above). So, you might have to do this again with another provider.

Even if you were to remove ALL listing services, I wouldn't be surprised if they used some type of "scraping" to get the inventory and pricing comparisons that are on their site.


TY Drew.

From my quick review, CarGurus.com is not a scraper site, it works with vendors that have a large client base (cars.com and Dealix). It uses the vendor formatted vehicle and options data to establish comparisons.

I am not a Dealix dealer. My inventory is down: Used Acura RDX For Sale Syracuse, NY - CarGurus


If CarGuru's were to scrape to collect data, then the mission to create vehicle price comparisons would be far more difficult, time consuming and prone to errors. I watched Trulia - Real Estate, Homes For Sale, Sold Properties, Real Estate Maps painstakingly grow, city by city. The Car biz is far more centralized than Real Estate.
 
Joe,

My name is Langley Steinert. I'm the ceo/founder of CarGurus. I wanted to get back to you with some thoughts on your post above. You raise some interesting points


Information or the “lack of information†is troubling for both consumers and dealers. Our goal is, hopefully, to provide the same accurate information to both parties.
In my prior life, I was co-founder/Chairman of TripAdvisor, which is the largest online travel site in the world. At TripAdvisor we similarly worked hard to provide information (user reviews) to consumers. In the end, providing more information to consumers benefited both shoppers and hoteliers in the form of increased sales.
We are hoping to do the same here in the online autos space.


Welcome aboard Langley!

I am a HUGE fan of TripAdvisor for a long while, congratulations on your hard work! TripAdvisor and Kayak are my "must visit" travel sites (you'll see my travel posts with TA links on this site: http://forum.dealerrefresh.com/f40/nada-orlando-anyone-rollcall-660.html#post5189)

I'll address your reply, topic by topic, hope it helps.
 
Joe,

...I looked into the listings that you mentioned and have a few observations:
1. Information is freely accessible – Our site has a pricing page for each car manufactured since 1965. On that page you can see exactly how we arrived at the pricing for that car (ie we show all the recent listings that we use to arrive at a price recommendation based on mileage, trim, etc). Our analytics are not a black box....

Langley,

I understand the power of transparency and how it can radically change any industry that was previously "dark". We've watched it forever change the Financial Industry (Security Brokerages), the Travel business (Travel Agencies) and the Auto Industry (the new car side, not the used).

Enter CarGurus.com to fill the Used Car void.

I have no bones with "turning on the light" in the Used Car space. It's the central point of the title of this thread: Used Cars - CarGurus.com - vAuto and the Travel Industry. IMO, it was only a matter of time until an entrepreneur of your class descended on our vertical, rolled up their sleeves and tried to find a way to make it all come together. I've had lengthy discussions with Dale Pollak of vAuto on this topic. vAuto (and First Look) have this sea of vehicle market data and choosen to resell it to dealers. I always believed that this data would make it's way to retail... and here you are! ;-)

Welcome!
 
Joe,

...Below is the URL for the 2007 Acura RDX that you had concerns about. If your sales folks are concerned about not having the same information as consumers, I would urge them to check out our site. It’s free.
2007 Acura RDX Price - CarGurus

Langley,

Here is the rub.
I am not wishing CarGuru's and it's model didn't exist, what troubled me was when a lead is generated by CarGurus.com, your partner Cars.com chooses not to tell me that the lead came from CarGurus.com. It's important to note that CarGurus.com is NOT a "typical" automotive classified site. The CarGurus.com presentation has information in it that NO OTHER auto retail site has.


It's all about the sale mechanics.
As you are currently configured, the dealer sees the lead as a cars.com or usedcars.com lead. So... when our CarGurus.com internet shopper submits a lead, the shopper assumes that the dealer knows they're a CarGurus.com shopper. NOT. Dealer receives the lead and thinks it's a Cars.com lead. NOT.

It's a set up for a firestorm.
We're back to a transparency problem (again). Shoppers publically HATE the dealer/negotitation experience, yet, the shopper spends a great deal of their time telling the dealer ONLY what they need to hear.

Langley, This "scenario" I painted earlier is very real! I wrote:
>>>... Imagine yourself shopping to buy a RDX, you send us a lead, we call you, set up an appt, we put a dollar value on your tradein, then you smack us with a complaint that we’re $1900 high and we should know that because that’s what the page said when you filled out the form.

Shoppers are NOT ignorant. Lack of information makes us look ignorant.

It gets worse.

From the Sales Managers desk, after 30minutes of total confusion about who,what,where,why cargurus.com gets its numbers and why the lead is a cars.com lead, Management then in-correctly assumes that ALL leads from CarGurus.com are booby traps. Sales and management are now totally worried about Cars.com leads that randomly produce very bad sales experiences. Management now has to train sales reps to ask all cars.com leads if they’ve been on CarGurus.com. Customers now wonder what CarGurus.com is. ...<<<
Transparency Solution:
Dealer simply needs a link to the listing.
 
Joe,...

2. Dealer input – Based on your input, we have decided to institute a dealer input channel so dealers can give us input on listings that they believe we have improperly priced/classified. If we find a listing has improper price guidance, we will change it within 48 hours. We do want to be responsive to dealer concerns.
3. The specific listings you mention – I did go and look at the 2007 Acura RDX listings you mentioned and we had 3 listings from your dealership for that car/year. All three were missing trim information which makes their classification complicated. If we assume the least expensive trim (base trim), all three listings are priced between $600 and $1,500 above the national average for their respective mileage. Without more trim information it is hard for consumers and our analytic engine to properly evaluate a listing. Based on the information we were given, these cars do appear to be priced above the national average. If you can let us know the trim, we would be happy to change the price recommendation.
Again, our goal is to provide a level field of information to both dealers and consumers and to be transparent in doing so. Each month we receive over 3 Million in-market shoppers looking for a car. We hope we can send some of those buyers your way.
Sincerely,

Langley Steinert
CEO/Founder – CarGurus

Langley,

Now you're entering into my arena, the VIN/Trim/Options cesspool. First, let me clear the air. I don't care if my RDX is $x over the national average. I'm never going to have the sharpest price all the time. Again, the only problem is the dealer(s) don't know what the customer knows. Dealers have to know or we look like idiots.


Now, back to the VIN/Trim/Options cesspool.
One reason why the Used Car market hasn't been penetrated with a "retail market visibility" shopping platform has been the VIN/Trim/Options cesspool. Its so filled with inconsistency that those that have tried to match vehicles down to a trim/package level have given up.

Vehicle options accuracy starts at the dealer level. Options/trim/pkg info relies on the quality of the data collection system (aka VIN exploder) AND the person entering it. This person is either in-house or a 3rd party vendor.

The VIN exploder tool knows only the most basic of vehicle information. It does not know the trim level (or the packages or the options) There are some VIN exploders that can make a darn good guess which trim is installed, but it requires a human to verify. This human that walks around and keys in the options, one by one, is the un-sung hero in our biz. Dealer Managers (as a group) avoid minutia as a rule and this VIN/Trim/Options cesspool here is as big as a mountain. Amazingly many dealers choose to ignore it (read: they don't know the problem exists).

I know of NO dealer on the planet that conducts an options audit, yet, it's the options that can make or break a sale...

re: my RSX trim is an example of the VIN/Trim/Options cesspool.
RSX comes in 2 trim levels. Base or Base w/Technology pkg. I have written a rule into our inventory system to STRIKE OUT any trim labeled "Base". I am a marketing director, my job is to make the phone ring. Speaking as a consumer, if I am shopping for an Acura RSX and I see one with the base trim package, I assume it's the cheapest of many trim levels and I want to keep looking for more options.

My favorite example is the Chevrolet Avalanche LT1 vs the Chevrolet Avalanche LT3. It's not clearly marked on the vehicle, but there is almost $10,000 MSRP between them:
Extra options INCLUDED on a LT3 vs LT1
-Leather
-Heated Seats
-Memory Seating
-Pass. Lumbar
-InDash 6disc Changer
-Bose Audio System
-Rear Seat Audio Controls
-Integrated Turn Signal Mirrors
-Navigation
-Backup camera

You could have a very very well equipped LT1 with everyting added (except Nav and backup camera) making the year/make/model/trim comparisons tough. Heck, Edmunds and AutoTrader can't agree on what trims are avail
Edmunds 08 Avalanche (trims: LS or LT)
AutoTrader 08 Avalanche (trims: LS, LT w/1LT, LT w/2LT, LT w/3LT, or LTZ)
It's enough to make your head hurt... let alone the shoppers!


Now that I've concluded that the VIN/Trim/Options cesspool reduces the price matching quality, but, because it exists and no one talks about it, you may want to use that to your advantage... and that is a whole 'nother subject!!

Hope this helps!
 
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You are correct Joe....the options make all the difference. I did a search for a Corvette and see a glaring difference in the way the vehicles are sorted by their price. You can see base model Vettes being compared vs loaded up Vettes with no options being factored into their results. The comparison is not the same.

Our only saving grace is I think having multiple pictures and a good description on the vehicle. Hopefully the customer will click on our vehicle to read. Cars.com should at least adjust the ADF lead to include the Carguru info so we would know the original source. Wont happen beacuse it would show less leads from Cars.com but would be the fair thing to do.
 
Here is another good example:

Lexus RX 330 on CarGurus 200 miles out from 89502 zip.

First 4 cars are only FWD. The difference in MSRP $2,500.00 .

Now lets take a look at the third car:
Exterior color : blue
Interior Color --
Certified: No

You do call us a " :devil: Hot Seller"

Now Lets take a look at the same car on Cars.com :

Exterior Color: Blue Metallic
Interior Color: Ivory
Certified: Yes

Lexus Certification Value $ ?

I think we welcome your Idea...however... it still needs some adjustments! I also think you should partner directly with the dealers not with Cars.com or other big players...