Jon- Your analogy is okay for personal transactions- one can make a choice to participate in loaning money out to a friend or not. This is a business situation in which rules and laws are involved. The choice of the dealership was to be involved or not in the program. When the dealership opted to participate they were agreeing to abide by the rules. There appears to be dealerships playing by the rules and dealerships which are not. I can understand that the dealers who submitted things that are valid and done in a timely manner are rightfully frustrated. I almost have that situation except that the dealership is not in total compliance by not accepting to physically take my clunker and coming up with a "you pay me if this isn't approved" agreement weeks after the deal was signed. I wouldn't choose to have a friend who acts that way. Yup, the government is definitely harming the entire process by their own noncompliance of what they stated would happen regarding approval and payment. One could feel pretty "friendless" in this crowd.

If the car is paid to the dealer with the exception of the government voucher doesn't that help their cash flow?

When manufacturers like Toyota offer (I believe this was made available August 17)to front the dealers the voucher differences, why don't dealers take that on and participate in an opportunity to develop good will with potential repeat customers?

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that this is not a dealer or consumer issue, all the problems start and end with the government. If dealers had received payments within the 10 day time frame they had been told, every single vehicle would be in the possession of the consumer. Unfortunately many dealers are out thirty days on their submissions and still have no money to show for it.

Now let's put this in a context everyone can understand, let's say a good friend approaches you and says they need to borrow 30% of your paycheck from you, but they assure you they will have the money back to you within 10 days. Now 10 days have passed, no money, 20 days, no money, 30 days, no money. Now you are short on covering your expenses and another person comes and tells you they also would like to borrow money from you, do you think there is a chance you are going to take steps to cover yourself this time? It's no different than what the dealers are doing by asking the consumers to cover the shortfall if the government doesn't pay out.

I think the reason so many consumers are upset about being asked to cover the $4,500 is that they think there is a good chance the government won't come through with the money. Think about it, if it is a for sure thing, why would anybody be concerned that the $4,500 note might come due? So in reality both side have the same exact fears, that the government will end up not paying out.

Thanks Kim. I have been talking with the Sales Manager. He is the one that provided the info regarding signing an agreement to return the car or pay $4500 if the deal is not approved by the CARS program. Our clunker qualifies in every way so that aspect shouldn't be in question. I am thinking I will call the NHTSA on Monday, and also look to talk to the manufacturer. This dealership is part of some large "group" over several states-I don't know if you get more or no better attention if you go up that type of ladder. I guess I will talk to the AG office again on Monday. I have the same fear as some others that this might threaten the deal altogether...can a dealer cancel a deal that is already submitted when I want to comply but they are choosing not to?

Ann,
I a so sorry for your situation. Our situation came to a head when my husband looked at me and said "When does our warranty start? I looked u our manufacturers Customer service number and after talking to the found out it had started on July 31. My husband visited the dealership and at first things did not go well. He asked about when we could get our car and was told to pay the 4500 and we could have it today. He told them that was against the guidelines. The man walked away from him. He was able to talk to our salesman and told him he wanted to speak to the sales manager and was taken right to him. Unbeknown to us the manufacture had called the dealership. A date and time was set up right then. The women I talked to from the manufacture calle dus this afternoon and let us know our car would be released I was able to tell her yes on Monday at 3:30. She is going to call us Tuesday to make sure there were not problems. Hope this helps.

We are in a similar position to Steve and Kim- it has been 27 days since we signed for the new car. Our dealership is 3 hours away so it isn't convenient to run down there. We expected to take our clunker to sign for the new car, we haven't had a new car in 11 years so we have been socking away the cash for when we "had to" get a new car. This program was the incentive to get out the checkbook. You can have cash in hand if you save it over a long time. The salesperson told us to bring all the paperwork but not bring the clunker. I have since learned that we were supposed to leave the clunker but the dealership seems to have no interest in taking it. They also will not release the car to us unless we sign an agreement to return it if our voucher is not approved. This is a new contingency they have come up with as of August 13-about 2 weeks after we signed all the CARS program paperwork and agreed to buy the car. The advice they have from their lawyers is that if the customer refuses to sign, the dealer can choose not to deal. It seems like a threat. I am confused as to how that applies to a deal already entered into. We have a downpayment on the car, they didn't require full payment on our part. Per the Sales Manager our "invoice" shows pending approval. It has been 28 days. I spoke with the state dealership association, they "guessed" the dealer didn't want the clunker yet because of space issues but didn't really know. I also was told that the dealer's association for this state advises their dealers to not release the cars. I have spoken with the consumer arm of my state attorney general's office and they are confused as to what is right. They have read the CARS.gov site info and agree the dealer's stance is in conflict with what is stated about delivery of a car and taking possession of the clunker. There doesn't seem to be anyone or entity that has the interest in pursuing compliance by a dealer. I don't feel comfortable having this clunker with me- the title has been signed over. It's a 3 hour ride over a weekend (no government agency answering the phones on the weekend). If I show up with the clunker and they don't want to take it-it is a big deal. If I show up with a clunker and they still won't release the new car then I must drive up two cars if I have to insist on leaving the clunker behind. It's a mess.

Advice?

@ Chris, you are 100% correct. The market does indeed determine the supply/demand equilibruim of goods offered for sale by sellers and prices buyers are willing to pay. I think what the OP was trying to point out that with the large amount of retail pricing support provided by the US government and depending on the manufacturer the large amount of support in the form of factory rebates, this supply/demand equilibrium is being reached without much discounting from the dealer, if any at all.

To the post above that states “we’re selling more cars at full sticker, because that’s what they are worth.” While I appreciate that you would like that to be the case (and sometimes it may be), what an item is “worth” is dictated by what a buyer and seller agree on and transact. More often this is readily apparent in the used car market. I have an 06 Lotus Elise, pristine condition with about 12K miles, that I was considering selling. In talking to many other Lotus owners they seemed to believe that my car was “worth” around $36K (sticker was 51). THEN..when looking at comments on various forums, people who did not own one but were talking about buying one thought they were “worth” the high 20K’s. Of course, many could site an e-bay sale etc to support their argument. The reality is somewhere in between. Neither the Buyer nor Seller sets what an item is worth. The merely suggest their opinion by means of an offer to buy or sell. I suppose the best indicator of a new cars worth would be historical prices paid within a specific geography. What I have seen is that sticker price seems to have been often quite a bit higher than what the Market has decided in terms of “worth”. Now, if we are talking some F-Cars that sell over sticker…

I THOUGHT THAT THE DEALS WERE REVIEWED AS FIRST IN, FIRST OUT. I HAVE DEALS BEING REVIEWED THAT WERE INVOICED AT LEAST TWO WEEKS AFTER SOME THAT HAVE NOT BEEN REVIEWED. SHOULD I BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS?

Thanks Steve for the info.
My husband just got back form the dealership and after a lot of talking and finally meeting with one of the owners our car is scheduled for pick up Monday at 3:30.

Kim, I was in your same position with not receiving my new car and still driving my clunker. I also finished my deal on July 31st. I emailed the GM of the dealership yesterday as my sales rep was steadfast in not giving me my vehicle. I mentioned to the GM the date my deal was done, as well as my rights under the program (having my car the day of the deal), and the dealerships violations under the program (not accepting my trade in). I also mentioned that the CARS hotline people and the NHTSA rep. I talked to both agreed that I should have my new car and asked me to report the dealership ; they also mentioned the dealership could face fines as a result. In any case, the GM emailed me back, and we set up a time to take delivery and hand over my trade-in..I should have the car later today. My advice - move up the ladder and talk to someone other than your sales rep.

I bought a car under the cash for clunkers program on July 31, and am still waiting for delivery. I have been very understanding of the dealerships position but just was told my warranty started on July 31. I have now lost one month of coverage and there seems to be no end is sight. What are my options?

$50 scrap value is all we gave our customers. We delivered all sold vehicles under the CARS program as told, the same day, or when we got it in on trade from another dealer. The junker picked up every clunker within 24 hours. What they make on the clunker is irrelevant to us and our customers. The $3500 or $4500 in CARS rebate was given to the customers by our dealership. We are still waiting for the Government to pay us about $300,000 which we should be paid with interest. The Obama administration lied about the payout to dealers and if this program ever comes back, one of the biggest Nissan dealers in America will say - sorry, we don't participate. The $300K we're owed is hurting. The customers need to thank the dealership if any thanks is possible from a trend in car buyers that think they're owed something. Just another reason we're selling more cars at full sticker, because that's what they are worth.

wow. ya'll actually got people on the phone at the number? i never actually heard a voice except for the new recording of a different voice telling me to push another number on the menu.. then i would hold for about 2 hours and then it would cut me off. i wasn't able to submit my actual paperwork until midnight. i wasted at least a weeks worth of time submitting paperwork only to get kicked out and not able to log back in.. then i would have to resubmit it all over again..it only worked for me about 11pm each night. today, i finally was able to logon this afternoon to check the status and they are still under review. i tried logging on this morning and their server down. go figure.

Steve, Please see a couple of posts above.

err

Anyone know the deal with the scrap value? Does the dealership get a scap value for the "clunker" when they take possession of the trade-in, when they disable it, or do they do that before all the paperwork is in? I have a feeling my dealership didn't do this properly and only put $50 for the actual scrap value to cover a certain fee b/c they didn't want to worry about giving more money back to the consumer...

thanks... at least i know it's not something i'm doing wrong...

I was on this morning for a while, but getting an error message now...

Is anyone having problems accessing the CARS invoice web site this morning? I have not been able to get on to check the status of my invoices this morn...

My advice is to certainly sit-tight. Like you said -- you both have the same goal. There are now 2000 people going through the applications -- should start to pick-up. On another note... I've seen a couple of mentions now regarding the "Salvage Value." Consumers need to understand that absolutely nowhere, anywhere, is it written or stated that the consumer is to be refunded any salvage value over the $50 alloted for "administrative" funds. This has been discussed in depth during NHTSA/NADA webinars on the CARS program. The rules do say the dealer is allowed to keep $50 for administrative costs, but again NOWHERE state that the consumer should be given the difference. Some dealers may choose to refund the difference, some may not, opining that there are costs incurred other than "administrative" in nature. Perhaps NHTSA will clarify at a later date, but it is factually erroneous for consumers to expect to receive salvage value in excess of $50 "by law." At best, the rules are enormously vague.

So here's the million dollar question:

Should consumers push the dealers to release a car bought with the CARS program or should we sit tight and continue to wait for the approval from the government?

We submitted our application on July 27th. Our dealer put it into the system that night. "Our" new car and clunker have been sitting on the dealer's lot since then. We really want our new car and I'm sure the dealer really wants us to take it (and stop calling them). It seems as though the dealer is breaking the law by making us wait for the approval on our clunker. (Silly law really..... why should the dealer have to take a financial risk on our clunker deal?)

Should I call the NHTSA and VW of America to report them? Should I wait to call them until after we get the car? Should I sit tight and do nothing?

The dealer also listed the salvage value of our clunker as $50, so he said we won’t get anything from that. Our clunker is a ’92 GMC Yukon. Where can I find the actual salvage value?

I seems this program has really become a mess. I am curious, to the dealers out there - if this program were to be offered again, would you participate or avoid all together? Is all of this mess worth the extra sales? In other words, has the "gift horse" that government has handed out to you too (I assume Net Sales for most dealerships benifited greatly, although I do not have any data to back that up at my fingertips), to the dealers become a "white elephant"? As for me, the dealership and I are coming to a mutually acceptable outcome so, please, do not take my above question in the context that I might have some "ax to grind".

Thank you - Chris

Bravo to Mr. Quinn!!!!!!!

I'm sorry, but they are not playing by the rules anyway you look at it. If they were becoming concerned about not being able to front the $$ for following the rules (allowing customers to accept delivery), then they should have stopped accepting new applicants until it could be fronted, or dropped the clunker program altogether like other dealerships have. However, they chose to bend the rules in order to take advantage of the increased number of sales they would receive by continuing to participate.

Steve, to be honest, your sense of "entitlement" here is a bit disturbing. You want to look a gift-horse in the mouth, well then I guess you're enitled. Good luck!